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	<title>Comments on: Be warned:  International Sybase User Group (ISUG)&#8217;s free software for members from Sybase isn&#8217;t what you think it is!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://froebe.net/blog/index.php/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/</link>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jason L Froebe</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10402</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason L Froebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10402</guid>
		<description>Ah but Kevin, your example is flawed.  The prices you list are for full releases not the &quot;Not for Retail&quot; licenses.  If you can find the actual prices for &quot;Not for Retail&quot; licensed software then you might have a point.

All I&#039;m asking for is removal of the reference to &quot;plus a package of free Sybase Software &lt;strong&gt;valued at over $7000&lt;/strong&gt;&quot;.  

I&#039;m no marketing person but something like &quot;plus an amazing collection of FREE software from Sybase!&quot;.  It&#039;s that simple.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah but Kevin, your example is flawed.  The prices you list are for full releases not the &#8220;Not for Retail&#8221; licenses.  If you can find the actual prices for &#8220;Not for Retail&#8221; licensed software then you might have a point.</p>
<p>All I&#8217;m asking for is removal of the reference to &#8220;plus a package of free Sybase Software <strong>valued at over $7000</strong>&#8220;.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no marketing person but something like &#8220;plus an amazing collection of FREE software from Sybase!&#8221;.  It&#8217;s that simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Sherlock</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10401</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Sherlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10401</guid>
		<description>So, as a board member, you were unaware of the specifics about the benefits of membership.  You were a &quot;director&quot;.  What direction then were you responsible for?  

But Ok, I&#039;ll play pretend.  I pretend I&#039;m not an ISUG member, nor TeamSybase member.  I wish to obtain all of the software listed in the benefits section so I can expand my skills with these products.  Via eshop, here is what I see for list prices:

Appeon For PB 6.2 (Dev Ed) - $850
PocketBuilder 2.5 - $495
Workspace 2.1 - $1395
DataWindows .NET - $695
PowerBuilder Ent 11.5 - $3000
EaServer 6.2 Dev Ed - Free (currently &quot;Hot Buy&quot; on eshop)
SQL Anywhere (single user) - $125
25% discount on PowerDesigner Dev Ed - $750
=============================
TOTAL = $7,310 American

I didn&#039;t include Powerdesigner Studio, or the list price for EAServer sans the &quot;hot deal&quot;.  So, I can pay the above, or I can shell out $99 for ISUG and get more restrictive (but equally functional) versions of that software I&#039;d otherwise have to pay $7,310 to get.  I think most anyone who applies reason, and logic would &quot;get&quot; this.  This is speaking to my first comment on this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, as a board member, you were unaware of the specifics about the benefits of membership.  You were a &#8220;director&#8221;.  What direction then were you responsible for?  </p>
<p>But Ok, I&#8217;ll play pretend.  I pretend I&#8217;m not an ISUG member, nor TeamSybase member.  I wish to obtain all of the software listed in the benefits section so I can expand my skills with these products.  Via eshop, here is what I see for list prices:</p>
<p>Appeon For PB 6.2 (Dev Ed) &#8211; $850<br />
PocketBuilder 2.5 &#8211; $495<br />
Workspace 2.1 &#8211; $1395<br />
DataWindows .NET &#8211; $695<br />
PowerBuilder Ent 11.5 &#8211; $3000<br />
EaServer 6.2 Dev Ed &#8211; Free (currently &#8220;Hot Buy&#8221; on eshop)<br />
SQL Anywhere (single user) &#8211; $125<br />
25% discount on PowerDesigner Dev Ed &#8211; $750<br />
=============================<br />
TOTAL = $7,310 American</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t include Powerdesigner Studio, or the list price for EAServer sans the &#8220;hot deal&#8221;.  So, I can pay the above, or I can shell out $99 for ISUG and get more restrictive (but equally functional) versions of that software I&#8217;d otherwise have to pay $7,310 to get.  I think most anyone who applies reason, and logic would &#8220;get&#8221; this.  This is speaking to my first comment on this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason L Froebe</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10400</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason L Froebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10400</guid>
		<description>Kevin, do you honestly believe the NFR software is really worth $7,000? or even $100?  The issue of the $7,000 bait &amp; switch wasn&#039;t brought to my attention until AFTER I left the ISUG board.

No, I don&#039;t have an axe to grind.  Personal email?  No it wasn&#039;t a personal email.  If Mike sent me an email representing himself and NOT ISUG, then it would be a personal email.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, do you honestly believe the NFR software is really worth $7,000? or even $100?  The issue of the $7,000 bait &#038; switch wasn&#8217;t brought to my attention until AFTER I left the ISUG board.</p>
<p>No, I don&#8217;t have an axe to grind.  Personal email?  No it wasn&#8217;t a personal email.  If Mike sent me an email representing himself and NOT ISUG, then it would be a personal email.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Sherlock</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10399</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Sherlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10399</guid>
		<description>Nor is it as tacky as posting a personal email publicly I might add.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nor is it as tacky as posting a personal email publicly I might add.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin Sherlock</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10398</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Sherlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10398</guid>
		<description>Asking you to remove copyright assets is a threat?  C&#039;mon Jason, it&#039;s nowhere near as tacky as your strangely timed hissy fit with the ISUG software offer.  Now, if I understand this correctly, you were a board member for 2 years while this software offer was in place.  Did you have any problem with it when you were ON the ISUG board (and presumably in a position to do something about it)?  Or are you simply trying to grind some other ax now that your term is up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asking you to remove copyright assets is a threat?  C&#8217;mon Jason, it&#8217;s nowhere near as tacky as your strangely timed hissy fit with the ISUG software offer.  Now, if I understand this correctly, you were a board member for 2 years while this software offer was in place.  Did you have any problem with it when you were ON the ISUG board (and presumably in a position to do something about it)?  Or are you simply trying to grind some other ax now that your term is up?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason L Froebe</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10393</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason L Froebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10393</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been told by Mike Harrold, Executive Director of ISUG, that my use of the ISUG logo is unauthorized.  Presumably, this is because the board (or Mike himself - who knows) doesn&#039;t like my telling people of their bait &amp; switch tactics...  Ask yourself this question, what is the value of DEMO software?  That&#039;s what ISUG is really offering in exchange of your money.

So, I&#039;ve removed the image in question and put up a red X instead.  What little that can be seen of the original image is covered under fair use within the United States.  Copyright law is a wonderful thing don&#039;t you think?

In case anyone is interested in the email from Mike Harrold:




&lt;blockquote&gt;Sender: isugmike@gmail.com
Received: by 10.150.252.14 with SMTP id z14mr2213033ybh.72.1266444173022; Wed, 
	17 Feb 2010 14:02:53 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:02:52 -0500
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2fde8f4f5d62aadb
Message-ID: &lt;c8f476a31002171402y41c84002ga72e3a6a083e706a @mail.gmail.com&gt;
Subject: Blog Post
From: Mike Harrold &lt;mike .Harrold@isug.com&gt;
To: &quot;Jason L. Froebe&quot; &lt;jason @froebe.net&gt;
Cc: president &lt;president @isug.com&gt;
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd6f1b80f9706047fd3034b

--000e0cd6f1b80f9706047fd3034b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Jason,

Please immediately remove the ISUG logo from your blog post at
http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/

You do not have permission to use the ISUG logo for this or any other
purpose.

Regards,

Mike Harrold
Executive Director
International Sybase User Group
Email: Mike.Harrold@isug.com
Join ISUG. Learn More. Earn More!
Join today at http://my.isug.com/join&lt;/president&gt;&lt;/jason&gt;&lt;/mike&gt;&lt;/c8f476a31002171402y41c84002ga72e3a6a083e706a&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Unfortunately, this is rather typical of the ISUG board of directors.  Instead of correcting their statement (just remove the bit about $7,000 already!), they threaten critics.  Has the ISUG leadership fallen so low?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been told by Mike Harrold, Executive Director of ISUG, that my use of the ISUG logo is unauthorized.  Presumably, this is because the board (or Mike himself &#8211; who knows) doesn&#8217;t like my telling people of their bait &#038; switch tactics&#8230;  Ask yourself this question, what is the value of DEMO software?  That&#8217;s what ISUG is really offering in exchange of your money.</p>
<p>So, I&#8217;ve removed the image in question and put up a red X instead.  What little that can be seen of the original image is covered under fair use within the United States.  Copyright law is a wonderful thing don&#8217;t you think?</p>
<p>In case anyone is interested in the email from Mike Harrold:</p>
<blockquote><p>Sender: <a href="mailto:isugmike@gmail.com">isugmike@gmail.com</a><br />
Received: by 10.150.252.14 with SMTP id z14mr2213033ybh.72.1266444173022; Wed,<br />
	17 Feb 2010 14:02:53 -0800 (PST)<br />
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:02:52 -0500<br />
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2fde8f4f5d62aadb<br />
Message-ID: <c8f476a31002171402y41c84002ga72e3a6a083e706a @mail.gmail.com><br />
Subject: Blog Post<br />
From: Mike Harrold <mike <a href="mailto:.Harrold@isug.com">.Harrold@isug.com><br />
To: &#8220;Jason L. Froebe&#8221; <jason @froebe.net><br />
Cc: president
<president @isug.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd6f1b80f9706047fd3034b</p>
<p>&#8211;000e0cd6f1b80f9706047fd3034b<br />
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1</p>
<p>Jason,</p>
<p>Please immediately remove the ISUG logo from your blog post at<br />
<a href="http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/">http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/</a></p>
<p>You do not have permission to use the ISUG logo for this or any other<br />
purpose.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Mike Harrold<br />
Executive Director<br />
International Sybase User Group<br />
Email: <a href="mailto:Mike.Harrold@isug.com">Mike.Harrold@isug.com</a><br />
Join ISUG. Learn More. Earn More!<br />
Join today at <a href="http://my.isug.com/join">http://my.isug.com/join</a></president></jason></mike></c8f476a31002171402y41c84002ga72e3a6a083e706a></p></blockquote>
<p>Unfortunately, this is rather typical of the ISUG board of directors.  Instead of correcting their statement (just remove the bit about $7,000 already!), they threaten critics.  Has the ISUG leadership fallen so low?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jason L Froebe</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10331</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason L Froebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10331</guid>
		<description>I think I need to reiterate:

The purpose of this post is not to direct people away from being ISUG members, you do get a nifty Technical Journal where  article authors are only sometimes paid for their work, but to have people join with their collective eyes open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I need to reiterate:</p>
<p>The purpose of this post is not to direct people away from being ISUG members, you do get a nifty Technical Journal where  article authors are only sometimes paid for their work, but to have people join with their collective eyes open.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jason L Froebe</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10330</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason L Froebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10330</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s hope that ISUG removes any reference to the dollar amount that the demo software is supposedly worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s hope that ISUG removes any reference to the dollar amount that the demo software is supposedly worth.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jason L Froebe</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10329</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason L Froebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10329</guid>
		<description>Your absolutely correct. &lt;strong&gt;Sybase&lt;/strong&gt; doesn&#039;t claim that the NFR software is worth $7,000.  But ISUG does on their Gold Benefits web page:  http://www.isug.com/common/GoldBenefits.html

ISUG&#039;s deception of membership benefits on their website is clarified with the rather rude if technically accurate email from the ISUG president that was emailed to all members (11/12/2009 06:39 AM CT):



&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;
[Please note: this message has been sent to the entire ISUG membership.]

ISUG Members,

It has come to our attention that a certain few ISUG members are abusing the NFR software licenses that ISUG provides as part of its Green and Gold benefits packages.  The license that ISUG members use is granted specifically for design and testing of software.  Development of commercial or production software is strictly prohibited.

ISUG and its members enjoy a great relationship with Sybase.  This relationship means that we have been able to provide unlimited, no time constraint copies of Sybase software to members through our benefit packages.  We find it unfortunate that some members have chosen to abuse that relationship with ISUG and with Sybase.  In this case a few members’ bad actions may affect the entire membership of Sybase users.

ISUG would like to keep offering this benefit to our members.  We therefore would like to remind everyone that the license agreement with Sybase is legally binding.  ISUG also has a zero tolerance policy for violations, and will take immediate action against any member who violates the terms of service.

If you have any questions about licenses, or would like to inquire about the terms of use, please contact us immediately.

Regards,

Bryan Enochs
ISUG President&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A side note:  The part about &lt;i&gt;&quot;ISUG also has a zero tolerance policy for violations, and will take immediate action against any member who violates the terms of service.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; is particularly interesting as the only course of action ISUG could take is to report the violations to Sybase (Legal).  Depending on which country the member is located in, a NFR license may in fact mean a full retail license for production use.  Remember that copyright laws and the validity and/or enforcement of end user license agreements vary greatly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your absolutely correct. <strong>Sybase</strong> doesn&#8217;t claim that the NFR software is worth $7,000.  But ISUG does on their Gold Benefits web page:  <a href="http://www.isug.com/common/GoldBenefits.html">http://www.isug.com/common/GoldBenefits.html</a></p>
<p>ISUG&#8217;s deception of membership benefits on their website is clarified with the rather rude if technically accurate email from the ISUG president that was emailed to all members (11/12/2009 06:39 AM CT):</p>
<blockquote><p><cite><br />
[Please note: this message has been sent to the entire ISUG membership.]</p>
<p>ISUG Members,</p>
<p>It has come to our attention that a certain few ISUG members are abusing the NFR software licenses that ISUG provides as part of its Green and Gold benefits packages.  The license that ISUG members use is granted specifically for design and testing of software.  Development of commercial or production software is strictly prohibited.</p>
<p>ISUG and its members enjoy a great relationship with Sybase.  This relationship means that we have been able to provide unlimited, no time constraint copies of Sybase software to members through our benefit packages.  We find it unfortunate that some members have chosen to abuse that relationship with ISUG and with Sybase.  In this case a few members’ bad actions may affect the entire membership of Sybase users.</p>
<p>ISUG would like to keep offering this benefit to our members.  We therefore would like to remind everyone that the license agreement with Sybase is legally binding.  ISUG also has a zero tolerance policy for violations, and will take immediate action against any member who violates the terms of service.</p>
<p>If you have any questions about licenses, or would like to inquire about the terms of use, please contact us immediately.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Bryan Enochs<br />
ISUG President</cite></p></blockquote>
<p>A side note:  The part about <i>&#8220;ISUG also has a zero tolerance policy for violations, and will take immediate action against any member who violates the terms of service.&#8221;</i> is particularly interesting as the only course of action ISUG could take is to report the violations to Sybase (Legal).  Depending on which country the member is located in, a NFR license may in fact mean a full retail license for production use.  Remember that copyright laws and the validity and/or enforcement of end user license agreements vary greatly.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Sherlock</title>
		<link>http://froebe.net/blog/2010/02/02/be-warned-international-sybase-user-group-isugs-free-software-for-members-from-sybase-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-10327</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Sherlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://froebe.net/blog/?p=1196#comment-10327</guid>
		<description>I think you are splitting hairs here. Sybase doesn&#039;t claim that NFR software is worth $7k.  It&#039;s the free versions of software that otherwise would cost $7k.  Just ask yourself this:  If you wanted all of that software in that list, and you were not an ISUG member, how much would you have to spend?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are splitting hairs here. Sybase doesn&#8217;t claim that NFR software is worth $7k.  It&#8217;s the free versions of software that otherwise would cost $7k.  Just ask yourself this:  If you wanted all of that software in that list, and you were not an ISUG member, how much would you have to spend?</p>
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